From the Archives: The Man Behind "The Sixth Sense."

Show: FRESH AIR
Date: FEBRUARY 18, 2000
Time: 12:00
Tran: 021801np.217
Type: FEATURE
Head: Interview With M. Night Shyamalan
Sect: Entertainment
Time: 12:06

This is a rush transcript. This copy may not
be in its final form and may be updated.

TERRY GROSS, HOST: From WHYY in Philadelphia, I'm Terry Gross with FRESH AIR.

Earlier this week, the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences announced the nominations for this year's Oscars. "American Beauty" is the film with the most nominations, including best picture, best director, and best screenplay. On this archive edition, we'll hear from the screenwriter, Alan Ball.

"The Sixth Sense" received six nominations, including best picture, director, and screenplay. We'll hear from the film's writer and director, M. Night Shyamalan.

And film critic John Powers reviews the new movie "Hanging Up," directed by Diane Keaton, who also stars in the film.

That's all coming up on FRESH AIR.

First, the news.

(BREAK)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.

The 72nd annual Academy Award nominations were announced this week. "The Sixth Sense" received six nominations, including best picture, director, and screenplay. "The Sixth Sense" is now playing in theaters around the country. On this archive edition, we have an interview with the writer and director of the film, M. Night Shyamalan.

He also co-wrote the screen adaptation of "Stuart Little." His first feature, "Praying With Anger," was set in India. Shyamalan is of Indian descent and is from a Hindu family.

"The Sixth Sense" is the story of a boy with a terrible secret. He sees the dead, and is traumatized by what he sees. The dead who visit him have horrible wounds and seem to be the victims of accidents or murder. Bruce Willis plays a child psychologist who tries to help the boy.

Let's start with a scene from "The Sixth Sense" in which the boy reveals his secret for the first time to the child psychologist. Here's Bruce Willis and Haley Joel Osment.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "THE SIXTH SENSE")

HALEY JOEL OSMENT, ACTOR: I want to tell you my secret now.

BRUCE WILLIS, ACTOR: OK.

OSMENT: I see dead people.

WILLIS: In your dreams?

While you're awake?

Dead people, like in graves, in coffins?

OSMENT: Walking around like regular people.

WILLIS: How often do you see them?

OSMENT: All the time.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO TAPE)

GROSS: M. Night Shyamalan, welcome to FRESH AIR.

M. NIGHT SHYAMALAN, WRITER/DIRECTOR, "THE SIXTH SENSE": Thank you.

GROSS: When you realized that the child in your movie would be visited by the dead, he would see the dead, how did you figure out what kind of dead people he would see?

SHYAMALAN: Well, I first started to write it, it sound -- it felt very fake, very -- something I'd seen before. And cheesy, you know. It had flavors of other ghosts that I'd seen (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and so I was -- you know, I wanted to have it, you know, mature, and have a certain respect for the material that hadn't been shown before.

And so when I started to think about who was this person that was coming to this child, then I sort of go, Well, you know, it's a real person, and this person had problems, and so let me insinuate those things in the moment that he sees this person come into their bedroom, coming down the hall, even though they're very scary, you can insinuate a whole life and also, most importantly, what they're upset about, why they're still hanging around in the kind of -- the middle world.

GROSS: Is this film based at all on any fears that you had when you were a kid?

SHYAMALAN: Yes, yes.

GROSS: What fears?

SHYAMALAN: You know, I think I have the sixth sense in a normal capacity. You know, you feel uncomfortable in people's house -- some people's houses or some houses. You feel, you know, you feel like there's someone else in the house when you're alone kind of thing. I mean, normal things where people get -- just get kind of freaked out a little bit. But I used to feel that all the time when I was a kid, and probably till I was 13, 14, 15, maybe.

And so it was always a big traumatic event whenever I had to be alone in the house, even, you know, 12 years old, something. My parents were both doctors, so when they'd be late from the hospital and my sister was out, you know, it was a torture session being at home, and -- What was that? Who was that? Was that somebody in the bedroom? Is that someone there? I'm certain someone's in, I'm going to lock the door.

And so by the time they got home, I'd be, you know, scared to death in the corner, and they'd just -- you know, have talks with me about, you know, You're a big boy, and don't get scared of these things. And of course I outgrew it, you know, as I said. But, I mean, much like the kids that I research in the movie, you know, they outgrow it too.

GROSS: So what you were afraid of wasn't so much somebody, like, breaking into the house, you were afraid of spirits that were of ghosts that were haunting the house?

SHYAMALAN: Yes, I mean, it wasn't even, like, a separation of the two. They both felt the same. I mean, and that's why -- how I kind of portrayed them in the movie, that they were -- it was real, it wasn't, like, a glowing person walking down the hall, but you felt like someone was in the house, and how could they have gotten in the house? That kind of feeling.

GROSS: When you were coming up with the story for "The Sixth Sense," why did you think that the dead people, the spirits, would visit a child, as opposed to visiting an adult?

SHYAMALAN: Well, again, much like myself closing off the belief that there was someone in the house, you know, whereas, you know, now if I hear a noise I my house, I go, Well, it's clearly my cat, you know, or it's clearly the air conditioning. The doors are closed, and that's that, you know. And it's going away, the possibility of anything else unexplainable. I think you're more open to believing -- clear -- not I think, we are more open to believing in everything when you're a child.

If I said, you know, if I said to a child, There's someone in that closet, and I described them, they'd believe me completely. But the adult wouldn't necessarily believe me. And I think that that was just my own beliefs, but when you look at -- again, the accounts of people who claim they've seen ghosts and all, and children that have seen ghosts, they say that, you know, children are much -- have a -- like, a brighter life force and things like -- their explanation for it all is much more specific, you know?

GROSS: Now, the movie stars an 11-year-old actor -- he was 11, I think, when you made the film.

SHYAMALAN: Right.

GROSS: Haley Joel Osment is his name. And he's really terrific. And I know he's already had experience as an actor, this wasn't his first film. He was Forrest Jr. in "Forrest Gump"...

SHYAMALAN: Right.

GROSS: ... and was Jeff Foxworthy's kid on "The Jeff Foxworthy Show," and...

SHYAMALAN: Apparently. I haven't seen it.

GROSS: Yes, me either. (laughs) And, but, you know, he's been in a bunch of things. You didn't find him right away, I believe, in the auditions.

SHYAMALAN: Right.

GROSS: Tell me what the audition process was like before you found him. What -- how did you go about testing kids to see if they would be good for this role? Which is a pretty difficult role. The kid has to be, like, exceptionally smart, exceptionally sensitive, and also exceptionally vulnerable.

SHYAMALAN: Well, you know, it started off with a very pure intention that I was going to get a nonactor kid, just get a real kid that was -- that the belief that there was some kid in some school somewhere that I was going to just see, talk to him, and that would be our kid. And he wouldn't really be acting.

And I -- before Haley, I -- that was my belief, and I have had kids in my other films that you don't -- when you hire a child actor, you're not really hiring an actor, you're hiring that child to be himself and read those lines, you know. Whereas an actor can become someone else. And I didn't think that a child was capable of doing that, from my experience.

So I went through a long, tedious process of looking for children all around the country, you know, and looking for a particular look, you know, a pensive look, you know, somebody who was holding things back, that wasn't saying everything that was on their mind, which is kind of a child trait, but held things back. And you'd say something and they'd be quiet. Those kind of traits I was looking for.

And so I narrowed the field down, you know, and then so before I finished the search, I said, you know, Let's just be thorough, and let me see a handful of children in Los Angeles that have...

GROSS: Of real actors.

SHYAMALAN: Real actors...

GROSS: Child actors.

SHYAMALAN: ... right. Because I was getting nervous about pulling this off, because, yes, I wanted to be pure and all that, but I still hadn't nailed the film in the 38 days I had to shoot it, and that's my job. So went to Los Angeles, and I saw a -- the first three or four, and got pretty much what I thought I'd get, which was better chops, more professionalism, but less humanity, and -- than the kids that had not done anything before, you know.

So I was feeling kind of depressed. And then Haley comes in, and Haley was the only one -- only child probably the entire thousands of kids that I'd seen on tape and the hundreds of kids that I met in person that was dressed up. Now, this may not seem like a big deal, but he was dressed up like he came to, you know, dinner, a fancy dinner or something. But that was the first sign. I was, like, who is this little kid that came?

GROSS: Why did that impress you that he was dressed up?

SHYAMALAN: Because...

GROSS: Because the character always dresses in suits?

SHYAMALAN: No, because it showed respect for me, for the event of having an audition, for the movie, for the profes -- you know. These other kids were dressed, you know, baggy jeans hanging off their hip and chains and T-shirts and very cool-looking kids, all of them. And they were all just being kids. And that's fine. Even the ones that I was interested in, they were all just dressed like little kids.

But this child came in dressed differently than everybody else, you know? And he came in, his hair was combed perfectly, and he sat down, and he was shaking a little bit, you know, just a little shaking, he was nervous. And I said, you know, "Have you read the scenes that I want you to do?" Because, you know, I had three scenes I wanted everybody to do, and some of them had not even read it, so I had to talk to them, and they didn't -- some of them didn't even get explained what the movie was. So it was a very frustrating process. And sometimes they'd get scared, and so I didn't want to have that situation in the room.

And he said, "Yes. Well, I've read the script twice." And I said, "What? What do you mean?" I didn't understand what he said. He said, "Well, I read the screenplay twice." I said, "You read the entire screenplay twice before you came in to audition?" He said, "Yes."

So already now you have two things that tell you we're in a different situation. And then he sat down and we talked for a while. And he's a super-intelligent child. And we got along really well. And he was a very sweet, sweet child, so already he was matching my character, which was a really compassionate child who understood emotion.

And he sat there and he read it, and it was -- oh, it was breathtaking when he sat down and read it. It was -- I had heard the words butchered for months, and then suddenly, perfection.

GROSS: I want to play another scene from your movie, "The Sixth Sense," and in this scene, the young actor we're talking about, Haley Joel Osment, he's describing some of the reasons why everyone in school thinks he's a freak.

SHYAMALAN: Right.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "THE SIXTH SENSE")

OSMENT: We were supposed to draw a picture, anything we wanted. I drew a man. Got hurt in the neck by another man with a screwdriver.

WILLIS: You saw that on TV, Cole?

OSMENT: Everyone got upset. They had a meeting. Mom started crying. I don't draw like that any more.

WILLIS: How do you draw now?

OSMENT: Draw people smiling, dogs running, rainbows. They don't have meetings about rainbows.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GROSS: This idea of the child thinking that everyone sees him as a freak, that use of the word "freak," where did that come from for you? Did people ever think that you were a freak, or did you know someone who was afraid people thought he was a freak, or...

SHYAMALAN: No, it wasn't -- I mean, I -- you know, I was definitely felt different than other children, not for the same reasons at all that Cole did, you know, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) grew up in Philly in the mainline, and only Indian kid in almost every school I've ever gone to, you know, even including film school. And so imagining my main characters as children that are isolated is pretty easy to do.

And I wanted him to -- you know, in imagining the life of a child like this, I'd imagine that in reality he was probably kind of normal, but that he does things that creep out people and creep out children that are around him, and then he gets labeled as the freak.

GROSS: My guest is M. Knight Shyamalan. He wrote and directed "The Sixth Sense." We'll talk more after a break.

This is FRESH AIR.

(END AUDIO TAPE)

(BREAK)

GROSS: On this archive edition, we're featuring an interview with M. Night Shyamalan. He wrote and directed "The Sixth Sense," which received six Academy Award nominations this week.

(BEGIN AUDIO TAPE)

GROSS: Now, I want to say something about the movie without ruining anything for people who haven't already seen it.

Early on in the film, we find out that one of Bruce Willis's former patients -- and Bruce Willis is a child psychologist -- one of his former patients is -- who is now a young adult, is kind of deranged.

SHYAMALAN: Right.

GROSS: And so we see early in the movie that no matter how young and helpless and vulnerable and innocent a young, disturbed child might be, they might grow up to actually be a danger to themselves or to others.

SHYAMALAN: Right.

GROSS: And I thought it was a kind of good way, among other things, at the beginning of the film as establishing, this isn't just a cute kid film.

SHYAMALAN: Right.

GROSS: Disturbing things can happen here, to the kid or this kid can do it themselves, or whatever. Did you want to accomplish that, to make it clear that this wasn't about just the innocence of youth?

SHYAMALAN: Oh, definitely. I mean, you know, on a practical level, what I wanted to do was get you nice and relaxed and think you were watching a -- think you were watching a little -- you're not quite sure what you're watching. You're watching drama and it's kind of cute and funny. And where is this going? And this feels like this is going to go like this for a long time. And then all of a sudden something you're not prepared for happens, and violent, and you should feel just like the main character in Bruce's shoes, and violated, you know, that someone had come into this house in such a violent act.

And then even within that situation, that moment when he finds this person in his house, that it escalates and escalates. And then you think it's going to be over, and then it escalates one more time. And what I needed, you know, sometimes mystery writers or, like, serial killer writers that write books talk about something called the slingshot effect, which is, you know, you open the book up and you read the first chapter, and something happens that is like pulling back a slingshot. And then the whole rest of the book is the momentum that has been built from that one event, you know, and letting go of that slingshot.

And so however strong that scene is, that's how strong your slingshot is, you know, for the whole movie. And you had -- that had to echo the whole movie, that vision of that boy and what this new boy could become unchecked, unhelped.

GROSS: Now, why did you want to work with Bruce Willis in this film? You needed, you know, someone who was playing the role of a doctor, a child psychologist, and, you know, it's a very thoughtful role, and Bruce Willis, let's face it, is most famous as either being, you know, you know, wise guy or an action hero.

SHYAMALAN: Right. Well, I guess I never saw him that black and white, first off, you know. I -- everything he's ever done has had some effect on me, you know. I even -- first time I saw him was in a Levi's commercial (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- you know, that's the first thing he got was the Levi's commercial, playing the harmonica, walking up the street, and he -- they started that whole campaign of just showing someone lively and wear Levi's, you'll be like this guy.

And he just played a harmonica and walked down the street. And I remember that image of him. And I was, like, Wow, that's cool. And then "Moonlighting" was such a big thing during high school with me. So then, you know, he captured me that way. And then when I saw "Die Hard" -- he kept reinventing himself, you know, that was the third time he had reinvented himself, to me, and had hit me all three times.

And so he stuck with me a lot. And then I -- you know, I'd seen little flashes of things that I hadn't seen in other actors. You know, I saw him play a bad guy in a movie called "Mortal Thoughts" where his ex-wife, Demi Moore was in also. And he played a bad guy. And when I say bad guy, he played a Bad Guy. You know, nowadays you can't play just a bad guy. If I write a bad guy and whoever's going to star in it, the guy has to be brilliant and bad...

GROSS: And funny.

SHYAMALAN: Or funny and bad, or sexy and bad, and witty and bad, whatever it is, but there has to be some redeemable trait. Now, this guy that Bruce played had no redeemable traits whatsoever, you know, just an awful person. And it was so brave a performance by him to just be hated. And then I saw him do just a kind of a softer role, but light, which -- it showed a lot of restraint, was "In Country," when he played a Vietnam vet. It showed a lot of peace, when he want -- if he wanted to, he could just have -- just be there and let peacefully things happen.

GROSS: So what did you tell Bruce Willis about how you wanted him to play this role in your film, "Sixth Sense"?

SHYAMALAN: Well, I said, You know what? I want to make sure -- the number one thing is that you come off vulnerable, because you have an air about you from the films and from being a superstar of invulnerability, and I think that that is the kiss of death for most of the stars when you can no longer see the down-and-out boxer that wants to just prove himself once, you know, all that he wants, he feeds turtles, and all he wants is just prove himself once. Then you forgot Sylvester Stallone, and now you see the $20 million movie star owns Planet Hollywood, and when he can't be vulnerable any more, you know, it's -- we've lost the connection with him.

And I think that Bruce, in the original "Die Hard," had that kind of vulnerability. He was very flawed, you know, didn't know how to -- he couldn't keep a marriage going, and he could -- you know, he was frustrated, you know, and he allowed his frustrations and his weaknesses to be shown even in that situation, you know, that farce, that movie.

GROSS: So it's hard to tell somebody to look vulnerable when...

SHYAMALAN: They're not.

GROSS: ... when they're not any more.

SHYAMALAN: Right.

GROSS: Or they no longer appear to be...

SHYAMALAN: So then that...

GROSS: ... or we don't project that onto them any more.

SHYAMALAN: Right, so that brings me to the other reason why I picked him. I felt like he had the same issue as the main character, which was, I think, he had something to prove in his work.

GROSS: Oh, so he -- you think he had to prove that he could be...

SHYAMALAN: The hot...

GROSS: ... more than just...

SHYAMALAN: ... an A-list actor, right.

GROSS: Right.

SHYAMALAN: And, you know, like Tom Hanks made the transition from comedian on "Bosom Buddies" to being an Oscar-winning actor. There are a handful of A-list actors that I think still have that thing to prove and that drives them, and it keeps their work, you know, excellent. And I think he has that. You know, all of us, everybody on the film had something to prove.

GROSS: So when you see people now who have seen your movie, do they all have questions for you that they want you to resolve about the film?

SHYAMALAN: Oh, about the film. No, not really. I mean, they're more about expressing how they caught on, and what clues they saw, and, you know, an appreciation for the two layers of thought that went into the movie, what they think they first saw, and what they saw the second time.

But what they do come back with, when people see the movie, is, ghost stories, you know, everybody comes and tells me their ghost stories.

GROSS: You've met a lot of people who have them?

SHYAMALAN: Almost everybody, yes. You haven't yet, but I'm waiting. (laughs)

GROSS: (laughs) No, you'll have to wait a while for that.

What kind of stories?

SHYAMALAN: Oh, you know, I was -- about someone who died, a girlfriend who died, and then, you know, I saw them in a dream and I swear they were in my room, and they said, "It's OK," or, you know, an uncle who had died, and then I -- something of his was left behind somewhere where no one would have put it, right in the middle of the room, or, you know, things like that. And each have their own stories and what it meant to them of how they felt like they touched that other world.

GROSS: Well, I want to thank you very much for talking with us. And congratulations on your film.

SHYAMALAN: Oh, thank you very much.

(END AUDIO TAPE)

GROSS: M. Night Shyamalan wrote and directed "The Sixth Sense," which received six Academy Award nominations this week, including best picture, best director, best screenplay, and best supporting actor for the young Haley Joel Osment.

I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

(BREAK)

GROSS: Coming up, "American Beauty," the film that has received the most Academy Award nominations, including best picture, director, and screenwriter. We'll hear from the screenwriter, Alan Ball.

And John Powers reviews the new movie "Hanging Up," directed by and starring Diane Keaton.

(BREAK)

TO PURCHASE AN AUDIOTAPE OF THIS PIECE, PLEASE CALL 877-21FRESH
Dateline: Terry Gross, Philadelphia, PA
Guest: M. Night Shyamalan
High: Writer and director M. Night Shyamalan's film "The Sixth Sense" has been nominated for six Academy Awards: Best Picture, Directing, Performance by a supporting actor (Haley Joel Osment) and actress (Toni Collette), film editing and screenplay. The film is about a boy who sees the dead. It stars Bruce Willis. Shyamalan made his film debut with "Praying with Anger" which was named Debut of the Year by the American Film Institute in Los Angeles.
Spec: Entertainment; Movie Industry; Sixth Sense; M. Night Shyamalan

Please note, this is not the final feed of record
Copy: Content and programming copyright 2000 WHYY, Inc. All rights reserved. Transcribed by FDCH, Inc. under license from WHYY, Inc. Formatting copyright 2000 FDCH, Inc. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to WHYY, Inc. This transcript may not be reproduced in whole or in part without prior written permission.
End-Story: Interview With M. Night Shyamalan

Show: FRESH AIR
Date: FEBRUARY 18, 2000
Time: 12:00
Tran: 021802NP.217
Type: FEATURE
Head: Interview With Alan Ball
Sect: Entertainment
Time: 12:30

This is a rush transcript. This copy may not
be in its final form and may be updated.

TERRY GROSS, HOST: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.

This week, "American Beauty" received more Academy Award nominations than any other film. It's up for eight Oscars, including best picture, director, screenplay, and actor.

On this archive edition, we have an interview with the screenwriter, Alan Ball. "American Beauty" is his first produced screenplay, but he's had several years' experience writing for sitcoms. He created the sitcom "Oh, Grow Up."

"American Beauty" revolves around two suburban families, and it's about alienation and loneliness and the ability to find beauty in the ordinary.

Kevin Spacey plays Lester Burnham, a man who barely communicates with his wife, Carolyn, played by Annette Bening, has lost touch with his teenage daughter, Janie, played by Thora Birch, and detests his job at an advertising magazine. In this scene, he's at the dinner table when he announces that he's made a big change in his life.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "AMERICAN BEAUTY")

KEVIN SPACEY, ACTOR: Janie, today I quit my job.

ANNETTE BENING, ACTRESS: (laughs)

SPACEY: Please pass the asparagus.

BENING: Your father seems to think this kind of behavior's something to be proud of.

SPACEY: And your mother seems to prefer that I go through life like a (bleep)ing prisoner while she keeps my (bleep)ing animation jar under the sink.

BENING: How dare you speak to me that way in front of her? And I marvel that you can be so contemptuous of me on the same day that you lose your job.

SPACEY: I didn't lose it. It's not like, whoops, where'd my job go? I quit. Someone pass the asparagus.

BENING: Oh, oh, oh, oh, and I want to thank you for putting me under the added pressure of being the sole breadwinner now.

SPACEY: I already have a job.

BENING: No, no, don't give a second thought as to who's going to pay the mortgage. We'll just leave it all to Carolyn. You mean, you're going to take care of everything now, Carolyn? Yes, I don't mind, I really don't. You mean, everything? You don't mind having the sole responsibility? Your husband feels he can just quit his job, and you don't (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

SPACEY: Will someone please pass me the asparagus?

BENING: ... I am not going to be part of this.

SPACEY: Shut up!

I am sick and tired of being treated like I don't exist. You two do whatever you want to do, whenever you want to do it, and I don't complain. Now, all I want...

BENING: Oh, you don't complain? Oh, please, excuse me, excuse me, I don't believe I got it (ph), then. If you don't complain, what is this? Yeah, let's bring in the laugh meter and see how loud it gets on that one. You (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

(sound of breaking dishes)

SPACEY: Don't interrupt me, honey.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO TAPE)

GROSS: The Kevin Spacey character works for an advertising magazine. Now, I know you worked for an advertising and a public relations magazine. What kind of work did you do for those magazines?

BALL: I was an art director. I was not a writer, I was an art director. I worked in the art department. I designed infographics, in which I took meaningless information and made it look visually appealing.

GROSS: What's meaningless information?

BALL: Oh, you know, just statistics, just page after page after page of statistics about who watches what and who reads what. And it was my job to do the -- to turn it into, you know, clever little illustrated ill -- charts and graphs.

GROSS: Well, Kevin Spacey writes this great quitting letter to his boss, really nasty. (laughs) Can you paraphrase the letter for us?

BALL: I think the letter is, "My job consists mostly of masking my contempt for the people in charge, and at least once a day retiring to the men's room, where I (bleep) off while I fantasize about a life that doesn't so closely resemble Hell."

GROSS: (laughs) Did you think of writing letters like that when you were working?

BALL: You know what? All the anger of Kevin's character doesn't come from my time at the magazine, because that was actually a fairly -- you know, as day jobs go, it was about as good as it could get. It actually comes from my own anger at -- I was a playwright living in New York, I was producing work that I really cared about, not making a cent for it, but really being invested and passionate in it and loving it and directing it, and even sometimes acting in it.

And then I wrote a play, and I was offered a job to come out to Los Angeles and write for television. And I -- my first four years in TV were in situations that to an -- you know, to a writer, to somebody who needs his work to be meaningful, even if only to himself, it was -- I was working in situations where that was really not possible, and I was so creatively frustrated and angry at certain aspects of the -- of -- you know, just the nature of the work that I was doing, that that's who Lester's writing that letter to, (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

GROSS: Were these sitcoms that you were writing?

BALL: Yes.

GROSS: Do you want to say which ones?

BALL: No, I'd rather not. (laughs)

GROSS: Right.

BALL: But they were -- they were -- they were situation comedies that were very -- that totally revolved around the star of the show, and in each instance the star of the show had total creative control. And that's very frustrating as a writer, because you become -- basically you become a stenographer. And when you're taking dictation from someone who really doesn't think like a writer or think like, you know -- who basically looks at the show as P.R. for their own lives, you -- there's a certain amount of frustration and rage that builds up in you.

And, you know, at the time I was really frustrated, but, you know, in retrospect, thank God, because it fueled the writing of "American Beauty."

GROSS: You know what I thought was really funny, you know, when Spacey quits the job, he ends up taking a job at a fast food hamburger place.

BALL: Right.

GROSS: And he says he's looking for the least amount of responsibility. I have to say, I so related to that. I would never do this, nor would I want to work in a fast food hamburger joint, and especially for the amount of money that they pay. But there are days, you know, when I wake up, and I'm sure lots of people do, and think, Is there a way of going through life with a little less responsibility?

BALL: Oh, totally, I know, and you just want to -- yes, that's -- yes.

There are certainly days when I wake up and I think, Yes, I wouldn't mind flipping burgers today. I don't want to go in and face this. But, you know, wishing to do something and actually doing it are two different things.

GROSS: The Kevin Spacey character gets a crush on his daughter's best friend, who, like his daughter, is still in high school. And it starts off kind of funny in the beginning and gets, you know, increasingly disturbing as the story goes on.

And, you know, not being a guy myself, I wonder, do you think that this is an emotion that a lot of adult men end up having to deal with and repress, these, you know, feelings of arousal for, you know, lovely teenagers who are their children's friends?

BALL: I think for Lester, he -- Angela -- he hasn't felt that way about anyone -- any woman in a long time, and she reawakens a part of him that takes him back to when he was a teenager himself and he basically had that sort of optimism and that sort of kind of energy that you feel when basically your whole life is ahead of you, as opposed to most of your life is behind you. Not most, but at least -- you know, half of your life is behind you.

You're at a point where you think anything is possible as opposed to a point where you think, Well, how can I -- what kind of compromise can I hope to settle for? And while his obsession with her may not be healthy or appropriate, I feel like his desire to have the -- to feel that kind of passion in life again is very, very healthy. And he gets confused because he thinks that she's the goal, but she's really just in sort of union terms, she's just the knock on the door, she's just the call to adventure.

And he realizes that, of course, by the end.

GROSS: There's two fathers in "American Beauty," Kevin Spacey and the father next door. Now, the father next door is an ex-Marine and into, like, strict discipline of his son, and also very homophobic...

BALL: Right.

GROSS: ... which sets a lot of the story in motion. Now, I know that you're gay. Does this, like, homophobic father reference come from someone in your family, or just things that you've observed and know exist?

BALL: Oh, yes, yes. I mean, I grew up in Marietta, and I grew up in the -- in Marietta, Georgia, and I grew up in the -- I came of age, like, in the early '70s, before, you know, "Will and Grace" and stuff like -- that kind of stuff.

GROSS: (laughs) Right.

BALL: And I grew up thinking, I'm a freak, I'm horrible, I'm evil. And there are certainly members of my family, not my immediate family, but members within my family who were viciously homophobic and just kind of aggressively bigoted. And...

GROSS: How -- what did they say to you? Did...

BALL: Oh, well, that's just the thing. When I see them, like, once every two years at a family reunion, they smile blankly, and they don't say anything. But I know behind my back they're saying I'm going to go to hell, and that I'm, you know -- that -- that -- that, you know, I -- whatever, I know, I know those things are going on in my -- behind my back. But to my face, they're very polite.

(END AUDIO TAPE)

GROSS: My guest is Alan Ball. He wrote the screenplay for "American Beauty." We'll talk more after a break.

This is FRESH AIR.

(BREAK)

GROSS: On this archive edition, we're featuring an interview with Alan Ball. He wrote the screenplay for "American Beauty," the film that received the most Oscar nominations this week. The film has reopened in theaters around the country.

(BEGIN AUDIO TAPE)

GROSS: In "American Beauty," the teenaged guy in the film observes life through his video camera. He's just obsessive about videotaping the world around him, particularly anything that strikes him as beautiful. And the video both preserves the moment of beauty, but it also frames it as it's happening.

BALL: Right.

GROSS: Some people may think that seeing the world through a camera distances you from what you're seeing, but it seems to connect him with the world. Has writing ever been like that for you? Has it been either distancing or something that connects you?

BALL: Yes, exactly...

GROSS: To things?

BALL: ... it's been both. And I think, you know, if anybody were to analyze me, they'd say that's what -- what -- that's what his camera represents is writing, for me. But I -- he says a very interesting thing in the scene where he shows her the video of the plastic bag. He says, "Video's a poor excuse, I know, but it helps me remember." And it's not the -- it's not the video itself, it's the moment, and he wants to preserve the moment. But he knows that the video of the moment is not the moment.

That's a very subtle distinction that may get lost on some people, but I think it's a -- it's -- that's an important part of his character.

GROSS: Do you ever think that if you didn't write something down, you'd be left with virtually no memory of it, no way of retrieving it?

BALL: I don't think that I think there'd be no memory of it. But there are certain times when I feel sort of like whatever that gateway to your subconscious is, is open. It's, like, I got to do this now or I'm never going to be able to see the clarity of this moment as clearly as I see it now.

GROSS: This videotape that you mentioned is a videotape that the character takes of what he considers to be the most beautiful thing he's ever seen, which is basically a trash bag being blown in circles by the wind on an autumn day, and there's leaves blowing around too. Why did you come up with that image as the most beautiful thing?

BALL: Because I had an encounter with a plastic bag in the wind outside the World Trade Center one day that was sort of -- you know, it was sort of an epiphany. And very similar to what he experienced. And, you know, I'm sure a lot of people would look at that and say, Well, that's completely insane. And maybe it is, but I don't feel like I chose that image. I kind of feel like it chose me.

GROSS: What was so beautiful about it to you?

BALL: I don't know. There was such -- it was so -- first of all, it was so real. It wasn't artificial. It wasn't like, you know, a beautifully composed painting or a beautifully airbrushed photograph or this perfect image. You know, it was -- it was -- it was nature, it was -- it was -- and plus...

GROSS: Nature and junk. (laughs)

BALL: Yes, exactly, and literally this bag circled me. It just kept circling me. And I'm sure -- you know, I'm sure, you know, it's just a coincidence. But it really -- there was something profound in that moment for me. And I've never forgotten that moment. And it kind of, like, brought me to tears, and I can't -- of course I can't remember exactly what I was going through in my own life at that time. It might have one of those moments where, you know, watching a Burger King commercial would have brought me to tears.

GROSS: Yes, exactly.

BALL: But it was a profound moment, and I -- it always stuck with me. And -- you know, there's a whole Buddhist notion of the miraculous within the mundane, and that's what I thought it was important that there is beauty in a piece of garbage flying through the wind.

And I went -- actually, when the movie opened in Toronto and I went up there for the press junket, there was somebody who said, "I want to talk to you about that moment." I went, "OK." And they went, "He says it's beautiful, but it's garbage." And I said, "Yes." He said, "Well, garbage isn't beautiful." And I went, "Oh. Well, you know, I guess it's a question of perspective, that's kind of the point." He went, "No, no, no. No. Garbage is not beautiful." And I sort of went, "OK, thanks for clearing that up for me."

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: Did you go with the director, Sam Mendes, when that sequence was being shot, and...

BALL: No. And I keep asking him how he shot that, and he's very -- he...

GROSS: Yes, because you have to wait for that perfect moment where that bag really is kind of poetry in motion. (laughs)

BALL: He's very mysterious about how he got it. But, you know, I think it's because it's probably very, you know, mundane. There were probably, like, four people off camera with leaf blowers, you know.

GROSS: Right. (laughs)

BALL: But he says, "No, no, I don't want to tell you how I got that."

GROSS: Oh, well, eventually you'll get it out of him.

BALL: Yes.

GROSS: Do you feel that there was anything that you were able to do in "American Beauty" that you maybe wouldn't have been able to do if you were working with, say, a more experienced director or a production company that had already made a lot of movies? Because you were all first-timers, and I guess all willing to take chances.

BALL: Yes, and I also think the budget of our movie was so small that no one cared, whereas if it had been -- I mean, there was a point where there were a couple of big A-list directors looking -- reading the script, and I -- that made me very nervous, because I knew that if they signed on, and then they started getting big, big movie stars on and the budget crept upwards, then everybody would get really upset about the -- you know, really nervous about the material, and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) can't...

You know, it's so gross for him to be obsessed with a teenager. Can't they be college students? Can't they -- or in their mid-20s, and, you know, can't Lester and Carolyn be better parents to their children? Because they're just so unlikable. And, you know, those kinds of studio notes that you get all the time. And we were very lucky, because we were very low budgeting in, you know, by mainstream standards, and we just sort of, like, floated under the radar there.

GROSS: If I were writing a movie, I would sure want Kevin Spacey to be reading lines that I'd written. (laughs)

BALL: Oh, just that he -- just when we had the first read-through, just sitting at a table and hearing him read, you know, I went up to him afterwards, I said, "Well, that was one of the great joys of my life, thank you."

GROSS: What did he do with your lines that perhaps made you hear what you had written differently than you'd heard it in your own head?

BALL: Well, interestingly enough, a lot of what he did with them was exactly what I heard in my own head. But he also -- he tempered a lot of the stuff, especially in the last third of the movie, and he made it really, really kind, you know. He found a kindness in that character that I guess always existed, but when I wrote it, I was in such a state that I was just furious with the world. And so I had always, you know...

GROSS: This is back when you were writing for sitcoms and (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?

BALL: Yes, yes. I would come home at 3:00 in the morning after having rewritten a script that, you know, a sitcom script which totally did not need to be rewritten, and I would just be furious and exhausted, and I would sit down at the computer and just, you know, pound out "American Beauty" for an hour before I'd go to bed.

And -- but Kevin is a -- Kevin is an amazing actor, and people always ask me, Did you have him in mind when I wrote this script? And actually, no, I didn't. I don't have actors in mind when I write these -- when I write, because the characters themselves seem real enough to me. But when his name was mentioned, I was, like, Yes! That's good, get him! He'd be great, you know.

And I can't imagine anyone else playing this role. He's -- it's like he was born to play it.

GROSS: There's something slightly similar between your voice and his.

BALL: Well, people tell -- people say that, and people also say that we're sort of -- we look alike. Actually, my first day on the set, I drove onto the set, and the security guard said, "Mr. Spacey, your trailer is over there." And I said, "No, I'm the writer." And she went, "Oh, well, you have to park over there," like a mile away.

And actually some friend of mine came to the set when we were filming, and they -- my friend Nancy said, "It's freaky, it's so freaky, it's -- he's -- you guys are so much alike." I just have to take that as a huge compliment, you know.

(END AUDIO TAPE)

GROSS: Alan Ball, recorded last year. He wrote the screenplay for "American Beauty," which received eight Oscar nominations this week, including best picture, screenplay, director, and actor, for Kevin Spacey's performance.

Let's hear one of the nominations for best original song from the film "Magnolia." This is Amy Mann singing "Save Me."

(AUDIO CLIP, EXCERPT, "ONE," AMY MANN)

GROSS: Well, that wasn't "Save Me," the Oscar-nominated song, it was Amy Mann singing Harry Nelson's song, "One," which is also on the "Magnolia" sound track.

Well, coming up, John Powers reviews Diane Keaton's new film "Hanging Up."

This is FRESH AIR.

(BREAK)

TO PURCHASE AN AUDIOTAPE OF THIS PIECE, PLEASE CALL 877-21FRESH
Dateline: Terry Gross, Philadelphia, PA
Guest: Alan Ball
High: Writer Alan Ball's first feature film screenplay was for last year's critically acclaimed "American Beauty." The film has been nominated for seven Academy Awards: Best picture, Directing, Performance by an actor (Kevin Spacey) and actress (Annette Bening) in a leading role, original score, editing, and screenplay. Ball's also creator, head writer and executive producer of the TV comedy "Oh Grow Up." Previously, Ball wrote for the TV shows "Grace Under Fire," and "Cybill."
Spec: Entertainment; Movie Industry; Television and Radio; Awards; "American Beauty"; Alan Ball

Please note, this is not the final feed of record
Copy: Content and programming copyright 2000 WHYY, Inc. All rights reserved. Transcribed by FDCH, Inc. under license from WHYY, Inc. Formatting copyright 2000 FDCH, Inc. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to WHYY, Inc. This transcript may not be reproduced in whole or in part without prior written permission.
End-Story: Interview With Alan Ball

Show: FRESH AIR
Date: FEBRUARY 18, 2000
Time: 12:00
Tran: 021803NP.217
Type: FEATURE
Head: John Powers Review 'Hanging Up'
Sect: Entertainment
Time: 12:48

This is a rush transcript. This copy may not
be in its final form and may be updated.

TERRY GROSS, HOST: Our film critic, John Powers, has a review of "Hanging Up," the new movie directed by Diane Keaton. She also stars in the film, along with Meg Ryan and Lisa Kudrow.

JOHN POWERS, FILM CRITIC: Driving on the freeway last week, I tuned into a sports-talk radio station and heard the two male hosts talking about how dumb and annoying women can be. In particular, they were grumbling about taking their girlfriends to the movies. They went on and on about chick flicks, deriding their dull characters, tedious insistence on, quote, "relationships," unquote, and their bullying attempts to make the viewer cry.

As I listened to them yammer, treating women as if they were half wits or Martians, I kept thinking, These guys are witless louts.

But I also thought, They're right about today's women's movies.

A perfect case in point is the egregious "Hanging Up," a would-be comic tearjerker co-scripted by Nora Ephron and her sister, Delia, whose source novel drew on their own family.

It tells the story of three grownup blonde sisters who have to deal with the senility and impending death of their father, Lou, an old-time Hollywood screenwriter played by Walter Matthau. The movie's center is Eve -- that's Meg Ryan -- the sister with heart. She has a nice husband, nice son, nice home, nice Range Rover, and a nice party-planning business.

Her older sister, Georgia -- played by Diane Keaton -- runs a big fashion magazine, and like all female magazine editors in the movies these days, she's cold and narcissistic. Her magazine is even called "Georgia."

Eve's younger sister, Matty -- that's Lisa Kudrow -- is a daffy, self-absorbed soap opera actress.

Needless to say, Eve does all the work of handling their father. She's always on the phone to Georgia or Matty, who are usually too full of their own lives even to talk.

Of course, when the three sisters do get together, they squawk like half-witted parrots.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "HANGING UP")

DIANE KEATON, ACTRESS: All right, Eve, I admit that I haven't been there, OK?

MEG RYAN, ACTRESS: You admit? You admit it?

KEATON: But I took calls for them all those years.

RYAN: Oh, you did not! Your assistant did. I told you you needed an assistant, I told you a million times (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

KEATON: I have an assistant. No, I have one.

RYAN: Sorry, dear, that is not what we call an assistant, OK?

KEATON: He needed me. Oh, and you love it, you just goddamn love it, and don't pretend you don't love it.

LISA KUDROW, ACTRESS: No, it's not Eve's fault, Georgia, Dad depended on her.

KEATON: Matty, will you mind your own business, please? I can fight my own battles.

(CROSSTALK)

KUDROW: Wait a minute, why are you having a family fight without me? You always ignore me! (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Halloween, I was 5 years old, and I dressed up as a carrot, and you two snuck out of the house and went trick-or-treating without me. I'm part of this family, OK? I'm just as much a part of this family as either of you. And I want to fight.

KEATON AND RYAN: Fine.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

POWERS: As this scene might suggest, "Hanging Up" is excruciating. It's ineptly paced, hideously shot, and aside from Lisa Kudrow's wittier moments, filled with performances that make you yearn for the aristocratic refinement of the Marquis chimps.

Most annoying is Ryan, who's never worse than when she's working with the Ephrons, as she last did in Nora's "You've Got Mail." As Eve, Ryan spends the whole movie pulling adorable faces. She can't answer a simple telephone call without mugging, and the phone keeps ringing, apparently to make sure that even dummies get the movie's metaphorical title.

Does anyone really like Ryan's cutsie-pie shtick? It's turning her into a Steppin Fetchit of blondes.

Normally I wouldn't bother reviewing a picture this bad. But movies like this pose a particular kind of problem. You see, I find "Hanging Up" utterly demeaning to women, disdainful of women's intelligence and career success, reliant on crass female stereotypes -- there's even a wise old ethnic mom who dispenses wisdom -- and cynical in its attempt to milk tears.

But here's the problem. This is a movie made almost exclusively by women. It was green-lighted by a woman studio exec. It was directed by Diane Keaton and co-produced by Nora Ephron, and its marquee boasts three big-name woman stars.

Chick flicks don't come any chickier. As a male critic, I feel awkward lecturing so many women on how their movie's actually riddled with thoughtless scorn for their own gender.

That's why I was so relieved to see, in last Sunday's "New York Times" magazine, an extraordinarily smart essay by the novelist Francine Prose (ph) that asks the question, Why is pop culture for women so dumb? In the course of this piece, she discusses how so much of what passes for women's entertainment is simply mindless and insulting, from "Bridget Jones' Diary" and iVillage.com to the Oxygen Network and "Hanging Up," which she skewers with far more elegance and elan than I have here.

"The film may bring tears to one's eyes," Prose writes, "not of grief and sympathy, but of sheer exasperation and irritation at the level of condescension and contempt behind its female creators' belief that women are lame enough to fall for this, that this is what women want."

I can only say, Amen.

GROSS: John Powers is film critic for "Vogue."

FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our engineer is Audrey Bentham. Dorothy Ferebee is our administrative assistant. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our theme music was composed by Joel Forrester (ph) and performed by the Microscopic Septette.

I'm Terry Gross.

TO PURCHASE AN AUDIOTAPE OF THIS PIECE, PLEASE CALL 877-21FRESH
Dateline: Terry Gross, Philadelphia, PA
Guest: John Powers
High: Film critic John Powers reviews "Hanging Up," the new film by the Ephron sisters, and directed by Diane Keaton.
Spec: Entertainment; Movie Industry; "Hanging Up"

Please note, this is not the final feed of record
Copy: Content and programming copyright 2000 WHYY, Inc. All rights reserved. Transcribed by FDCH, Inc. under license from WHYY, Inc. Formatting copyright 2000 FDCH, Inc. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to WHYY, Inc. This transcript may not be reproduced in whole or in part without prior written permission.
End-Story: John Powers Review 'Hanging Up'
Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.